I had the same wish, went for a Pietro with Pro Brew Burrs and wanted something that did not cause that much pain in the workflow. I got a DF64V Gen2 and SSP Burrs. This setup is a bit messy, workflow is okayish (annoying dancing last bean in the DF64V). But for the price i am happy. Sometimes I wish my Niche workflow would be back.
I will tell you that numbers other people are running are not really relevant to your situation. Other than a basic starting point. Every Grinder has it's own personality. I am running a DF64v V2 on My Espresso setup and a Breville Smart Grinder pro for my Drip Coffee. Neither of these run exact numbers everyone else is running. My DF runs way higher than everyone elses grind settings. If you chase everybody else's numbers you will waste a lot of time. Just work on getting the best shot you can using your numbers.
Your numbers will also change the longer your grinder is used. The burrs are even seasoned/broke in until you run a ton of coffee through it. And I mean a TON!
Burr shape, Size, speed, all that jazz are just trivialities to worry about when you learn to make espresso better. The fact is most people can't tell the difference when they first start out.
btw. My df64v v2 consistently runs about 22 on my dial for my espresso shots. Most others run much lower. Until I quit chasing the 9-10 I was struggling. Now I just make good coffee and adjust the dial in tiny increments to adjust for coffee varieties.
Vor dieser Entscheidung stand ich vor kurzem auch. Ich besitze seid über 1 Jahr eine Femobook A4Z und bin sehr zufrieden. Es ist aber eine konische Mühle und ich fing dann an eine Scheibenmühle zu suchen welche für meinen Pour Over Kaffee, meist helle Röstung, noch einen Ticken drauf legt. Dadurch wollte ich auch meine A4Z entlasten da ich die auch im Urlaub mitnehme. Nach vielen Mühlen Updates z.B. 2 mal
Ode gen2, Timemore sculptor 078, Mazzer Philos und DF64 gen. 2.5 mit SSP Multipurpose, SSP Sweet Lab V2 bin ich wieder bei der Firma gelandet mit der ich vor 14 Jahren angefangen habe Filterkaffee zu brauen. Zu Baratza ! Abgesehen von dem guten Service den sie bieten, habe ich mich nach langen Recherchen entschieden eine neue „Baratza Forte BG“ für 539,-€ zu kaufen. Was soll ich sagen, nach kurzer Einarbeitung ohne Einmahlen der 54er Flachscheiben einen hellen Kenia gebrüht den ich gut kannte und Leute…. Mich hat es fast umgehauen, denn so eine „super Tasse“ hatte ich nicht erwartet. Die Mühle produziert eine Mahlung welche mit der EK43 eigentlich nur möglich ist. Ich nutze sie nur als „Single Doser“ und habe mir zum Austausch des Bohnenbehälters einen Blower mit einem Unterteil für diese Mühle bestellt, denn damit bekomme ich die Retension auf 0. Wie gesagt ich brühe nur Filterkaffee und diese „Baratza Forte BG“ werde ich auf jeden Fall behalten. Sie ist nicht das neueste Modell und hat wie jede Mühle auch Macken, aber mir geht es um den Geschmack in der Tasse und vor allen Dingen um Service. Und der ist nach wie vor erstklassig.
> but it seems you get what you pay for with these
And what do you mean by that (vs everything else on your list that are also made in China selling at the same price point)?
Btw, I hear people saying the DF64V gen2 now is actually the gen3 just named wrongly in international markets. Hard to know what these distributors are doing with names but the gen3 should be the first one with the flickable declumper flap as the most obvious visual difference
No I’m genuinely curious if you’ve heard something specific.
I very much agree with the general sentiment that “you get what you paid for” but what you are paying for may not always be stuff a user cares about, like branding, manufacturing labor costs, middle man distribution, import costs, and low volume production.
Like the motor in the DF64V gen3 is on paper better than even something like the Zerno Z1. Obviously the Zerno is a better grinder but what you are paying for there isn’t the motor.
So I’m only gonna list the 64mm flat burr grinders just because I like the flexibility and it would be fun to mess around with even with a Z2 in the future. But it pretty much means only Chinese grinders at this price point.
CF64V: $400 USD, 64mm vertically mounted burrs, 400w brushless motor with variable rpm for fines adjustment, all the retention and static mitigation gimmicks, stock burrs are DLC coated. Pretty everything you want (other than being ugly)
Timemore 064S: $480 on sale, better machining precision and more effective prebreaker auger than the CF64V, bad popcorning, no ionizer or bellow, but nice fidget toy with the rotational knocker and all the magnets. Underpowered 150w brushless motor but quieter as a result and gets away with it because of the effective pre breaker.
DF64 is inferior than CF64V in every way for about the same price. It is ironically over priced now but still gets recommended all the time because of past popularity rather than offering the competitive value that it had originally which gave it its popularity.
DF64V: $500 USD I think, but the latest version hasn’t started shipping in the US yet. Latest version has a best in class 400w servo motor and variable rpm, externally mounted ionizer to go along with the magnetic chute, and also added a flickable metal declumper flap which serves a similar function as knockers in vertical burr grinders to get out retention and also avoid clogs. Tilted horizontal mounted burrs, but the foot print is very small as a result.
It’s the only good option for an espresso grinder you have on the list.
The Fellow Ode is a filter grinder and can’t grind fine enough stock, and still under powered for espresso even with SSP burrs.
Fellow Opus is just…no
OXO is not an espresso grinder
Shardor 64 and Mokkom 64 are the two budget options but they’re currently about $10-20 higher than what you could get them at.
The two other Chinese grinders are typically only bought even in China as part of a “free gift” as part of an espresso machine bundle. Ultra budget.
The DF83V is a good grinder that some would even call end game. So obviously, there’s no comparison.
But I’ll throw in one more option for you: CF64V.
It’s essentially a $400 64mm little brother to the DF83V and you can even put SSP burrs in it if you want to spend extra, but the stock DLC burrs are certainly plenty solid.
Yeah it’s kind of the best value grinder on the market imo.
Kind of also shows how grinder recommendations by people online are mostly based on individual biases since for roughly the same price, by the same manufacturer and distributors, the CF64V destroys the DF64 across the board by every metric, yet DF64 probably still gets mentioned more.
So I’m only gonna list the 64mm flat burr grinders just because I like the flexibility and it would be fun to mess around with even with a Z2 in the future. But it pretty much means only Chinese grinders at this price point.
CF64V: $400 USD, 64mm vertically mounted burrs, 400w brushless motor with variable rpm for fines adjustment, all the retention and static mitigation gimmicks, stock burrs are DLC coated. Pretty everything you want (other than being ugly)
Timemore 064S: $480 on sale, better machining precision and more effective prebreaker auger than the CF64V, bad popcorning, no ionizer or bellow, but nice fidget toy with the rotational knocker and all the magnets. Underpowered 150w brushless motor but quieter as a result and gets away with it because of the effective pre breaker.
DF64 is inferior than CF64V in every way for about the same price. It is ironically over priced now but still gets recommended all the time because of past popularity rather than offering the competitive value that it had originally which gave it its popularity.
DF64V: $500 USD I think, but the latest version hasn’t started shipping in the US yet. Latest version has a best in class 400w servo motor and variable rpm, externally mounted ionizer to go along with the magnetic chute, and also added a flickable metal declumper flap which serves a similar function as knockers in vertical burr grinders to get out retention and also avoid clogs. Tilted horizontal mounted burrs, but the foot print is very small as a result.
At that budget? maybe DF83V with some SSP burrs. A 078S with SSP burrs could be an option too but if you like playing around with swapping burrs, I’d wait for the 2nd Gen 078S later this year for the easier and likely more idiot-proof tool-less grind chamber access.
Kind of funny to see you mention DF64 and build quality in the same sentence, and then also say mixed reviews on the Timemores.
If you’re going to get a DF 64mm grinder, get the CF64V or the DF64V gen3, not the DF64 unless you are just looking for cheap. But if you’re looking for cheap Chinese 64mm, you might as well get the Mokkom 64 and still skip the DF64.
Philos is over budget
Mahlkonig X64 SD is over complicated in all the wrong ways in terms of how it’s engineered. But you do get the German brand at least.
Eureka has retention issues on top of the proprietary burr size, but it’s made in Italy so that could be a plus for people that are really biased against Chinese manufacturing
What’s your budget?
The common “entry level” recommendation is a Bambino or Bambino Plus, paired with an Baratza Encore ESP grinder or DF54 grinder. Infuser or Duo Temp Pro are also good alternatives to the Bambinos if you want something a bit more classic, more sturdy, but less modern tech.
The next mid tier to end game ish recommendation would be a Breville Dual Boiler, paired with any number of higher end grinders. There are way more expensive espresso machines out there but you’re pretty much hitting diminishing returns after the Breville Dual Boiler.
The coffee grinder is really going to be more important than the espresso machine.
For a mid tier easy to use grinder, Niche Zero is a great option. It’s easy to use and easy to dial in different beans, with minimal prep and cleanup due to the no faff low retention design. But a lot of the espresso ~~snobs~~ connoisseurs are going to want something with a more targeted grind that requires more work to dial in and needs to be dialed in differently for different beans but is targeted and can extract the unique flavors of different beans and roasts more clearly rather than just having a good but blended tasting espresso.
For those type of grinders, 64mm (or larger) flat burrs are a popular option, with the DF64 being a nice cheaper entry level Chinese grinder, Timemore Sculptor (either 64mm or 78mm) being a good mid tier option, and something like the Mazzer Philos or Zerno Z1 being more expensive options. And then people start messing with swapping out different burrs for different flavor profiles and different beans and it starts becoming an addiction and you fall down the rabbit hole and find yourself spending every waking hour thinking about coffee.
Clean-Bookkeeper8606
