DF64V V3

I’d ask what kind of espresso you want! Flat burrs tend to be more clarity esp for light roasts. Conical burrs are best for darker roasts and creamy thick shots. Niche and DC63(budget choice) are great conical. I have the DF64v3 with SSP burrs. It’s great.

I started with a K-Ultra, then went to a DF64v Gen 3 with LeBrew Filter burrs, and I feel that I get a much more consistent cup. To me, the DV64V with Lebrew was a huge upgrade over the K-Ultra.

If you have Niche Zero money, you can also look at the DF64V Gen3. Specifically **V** not the regular DF64, and specifically Gen3 for the new servo motor, flickable declumper flap, and external ionizer. As far as clogging DF54s, part of me feels like it is exacerbated by the number of units sold to complete beginners to coffee, rather than any “QC issue”. I can’t think of any manufacturing variance that changes things that much. The machines are also generally tested before shipping as far as I know, (they just clean them unlike something like the Philos so it’s not as obvious unless you take off the burrs and check the screw holes). In anycase, the DF64V won’t have that same problem. But you could always go with a Eureka if you don’t want to take the risk and just want a solid grinder. Less features, more retention, and proprietary burrs for the same price, but peace of mind has value too. The new Varia VS4 should also be a fun option with its variable RPM and more durable build than VS3.

At that budget? maybe DF83V with some SSP burrs. A 078S with SSP burrs could be an option too but if you like playing around with swapping burrs, I’d wait for the 2nd Gen 078S later this year for the easier and likely more idiot-proof tool-less grind chamber access. Kind of funny to see you mention DF64 and build quality in the same sentence, and then also say mixed reviews on the Timemores. If you’re going to get a DF 64mm grinder, get the CF64V or the DF64V gen3, not the DF64 unless you are just looking for cheap. But if you’re looking for cheap Chinese 64mm, you might as well get the Mokkom 64 and still skip the DF64. Philos is over budget Mahlkonig X64 SD is over complicated in all the wrong ways in terms of how it’s engineered. But you do get the German brand at least. Eureka has retention issues on top of the proprietary burr size, but it’s made in Italy so that could be a plus for people that are really biased against Chinese manufacturing

What kind of espresso do you like? If you’re into classic full bodied espresso and want easy to dial in with a forgiving margin for error, but everything ends up tasting kind of the similar, you’d want a good conical burr grinder like: - Niche Zero - Lagom Casa - maybe Varia VS4 or VS3 if your budget is lower If you want more clarity (but requiring more precise dial in) for drinking more single origin coffees or want the flexibility of swapping out different burrs for different grind profiles, you’d want to look at a 64mm flat burr grinder. Good options here are pretty much all Chinese grinders. - Timemore 064S - Gevi Grindmaster - [white labeled] CF64V - [white labeled] DF64V, gen3 specifically since it has a lot of good upgrades The Eureka Mignon grinders are also popular flat burr options but they use 55mm and 65mm burrs so you can’t really just throw third party burrs in there as easily. They’re good but don’t have the best retention. I see absolutely no reason to still be buying a regular old DF64, especially when the CF64V is only $400 USD (for now), much better specs across the board, and made by the same factory. People naturally have concerns about the long term after sales support of the white labeled Chinese 64mm grinders, but they do offer a lot of value and they sell well within China as well (under the brands Creyke and Ranccea). Timemore seems to be the only brand that’s really taken off internationally, but the price is inflated more as a result.

So generally speaking, I would say if you are unsure, but think you may want to explore the world of coffee and the various different beans and roasts out there, go with a 64mm flat burr. There are flat burrs that can produce similar profiles as conical burrs and a little bit of vice verse, but in general, flat burrs can produce lower fines if you want to focus on clarity of flavors for tasting and exploring different coffees. So if you just want a trusted brand in that category, get a Timemore 064S (or 078S if you want to go larger), or the Eureka Mignon grinder that fits your budget. The Mahlkonig X64 might also be in your budget range here. If you want higher specs and value for your money, then you’d want to look at the white labeled Chinese grinders like the DF64V gen3, CF64V, or maybe even the DF83V gen3 if you want bigger burrs and budget allows. The **V** part of all of these denotes variable RPM and also means they use a more reliable brushless motor. They are completely different products from the cheaper not-V models. You’ll also notice how these tend to have gen1 / gen2 / gen2.5 / gen3. That’s part of where they save on R&D costs by partially using the consumer as beta testers but also to iterate and make QoL updates to drive consumerism and upgraditis/fomo among existing owners. The designs should be well vetted now, but try to get the latest version. Both the DF64V and DF83V received fairly meaningful functional upgrades on the latest version.

So I’m only gonna list the 64mm flat burr grinders just because I like the flexibility and it would be fun to mess around with even with a Z2 in the future. But it pretty much means only Chinese grinders at this price point. CF64V: $400 USD, 64mm vertically mounted burrs, 400w brushless motor with variable rpm for fines adjustment, all the retention and static mitigation gimmicks, stock burrs are DLC coated. Pretty everything you want (other than being ugly) Timemore 064S: $480 on sale, better machining precision and more effective prebreaker auger than the CF64V, bad popcorning, no ionizer or bellow, but nice fidget toy with the rotational knocker and all the magnets. Underpowered 150w brushless motor but quieter as a result and gets away with it because of the effective pre breaker. DF64 is inferior than CF64V in every way for about the same price. It is ironically over priced now but still gets recommended all the time because of past popularity rather than offering the competitive value that it had originally which gave it its popularity. DF64V: $500 USD I think, but the latest version hasn’t started shipping in the US yet. Latest version has a best in class 400w servo motor and variable rpm, externally mounted ionizer to go along with the magnetic chute, and also added a flickable metal declumper flap which serves a similar function as knockers in vertical burr grinders to get out retention and also avoid clogs. Tilted horizontal mounted burrs, but the foot print is very small as a result.

> but it seems you get what you pay for with these And what do you mean by that (vs everything else on your list that are also made in China selling at the same price point)? Btw, I hear people saying the DF64V gen2 now is actually the gen3 just named wrongly in international markets. Hard to know what these distributors are doing with names but the gen3 should be the first one with the flickable declumper flap as the most obvious visual difference

No I’m genuinely curious if you’ve heard something specific. I very much agree with the general sentiment that “you get what you paid for” but what you are paying for may not always be stuff a user cares about, like branding, manufacturing labor costs, middle man distribution, import costs, and low volume production. Like the motor in the DF64V gen3 is on paper better than even something like the Zerno Z1. Obviously the Zerno is a better grinder but what you are paying for there isn’t the motor.

So I’m only gonna list the 64mm flat burr grinders just because I like the flexibility and it would be fun to mess around with even with a Z2 in the future. But it pretty much means only Chinese grinders at this price point. CF64V: $400 USD, 64mm vertically mounted burrs, 400w brushless motor with variable rpm for fines adjustment, all the retention and static mitigation gimmicks, stock burrs are DLC coated. Pretty everything you want (other than being ugly) Timemore 064S: $480 on sale, better machining precision and more effective prebreaker auger than the CF64V, bad popcorning, no ionizer or bellow, but nice fidget toy with the rotational knocker and all the magnets. Underpowered 150w brushless motor but quieter as a result and gets away with it because of the effective pre breaker. DF64 is inferior than CF64V in every way for about the same price. It is ironically over priced now but still gets recommended all the time because of past popularity rather than offering the competitive value that it had originally which gave it its popularity. DF64V: $500 USD I think, but the latest version hasn’t started shipping in the US yet. Latest version has a best in class 400w servo motor and variable rpm, externally mounted ionizer to go along with the magnetic chute, and also added a flickable metal declumper flap which serves a similar function as knockers in vertical burr grinders to get out retention and also avoid clogs. Tilted horizontal mounted burrs, but the foot print is very small as a result.

So the issue isn’t so much that the Encore ESP is “worth it” but more the good reliable options are limited at that price point. The Fellow Opus is …. Not good So then the only “trusted brand name” grinder would probably be the Varia VS3. Then there are all the Chinese grinder options, but at this price point, you’re still looking at grinders that are considered “value” rather than quality among those. DF54 is the popular entry level option there for a flat burr grinder. Starseeker also has the E55 for a good conical burr option. Then there’s the ultra value sub $200 USD (sub 1000RMB in China) 64mm flat burr grinders like the GF64, the Shardor 64, and the Mokkom 64. They work well enough, but I think the problem with them is the temptation to upgrade because they just feel cheap. Remember, these are grinders that are considered cheap in the Chinese domestic market as well.

So I’m only gonna list the 64mm flat burr grinders just because I like the flexibility and it would be fun to mess around with even with a Z2 in the future. But it pretty much means only Chinese grinders at this price point. CF64V: $400 USD, 64mm vertically mounted burrs, 400w brushless motor with variable rpm for fines adjustment, all the retention and static mitigation gimmicks, stock burrs are DLC coated. Pretty everything you want (other than being ugly) Timemore 064S: $480 on sale, better machining precision and more effective prebreaker auger than the CF64V, bad popcorning, no ionizer or bellow, but nice fidget toy with the rotational knocker and all the magnets. Underpowered 150w brushless motor but quieter as a result and gets away with it because of the effective pre breaker. DF64 is inferior than CF64V in every way for about the same price. It is ironically over priced now but still gets recommended all the time because of past popularity rather than offering the competitive value that it had originally which gave it its popularity. DF64V: $500 USD I think, but the latest version hasn’t started shipping in the US yet. Latest version has a best in class 400w servo motor and variable rpm, externally mounted ionizer to go along with the magnetic chute, and also added a flickable metal declumper flap which serves a similar function as knockers in vertical burr grinders to get out retention and also avoid clogs. Tilted horizontal mounted burrs, but the foot print is very small as a result.

At that budget? maybe DF83V with some SSP burrs. A 078S with SSP burrs could be an option too but if you like playing around with swapping burrs, I’d wait for the 2nd Gen 078S later this year for the easier and likely more idiot-proof tool-less grind chamber access. Kind of funny to see you mention DF64 and build quality in the same sentence, and then also say mixed reviews on the Timemores. If you’re going to get a DF 64mm grinder, get the CF64V or the DF64V gen3, not the DF64 unless you are just looking for cheap. But if you’re looking for cheap Chinese 64mm, you might as well get the Mokkom 64 and still skip the DF64. Philos is over budget Mahlkonig X64 SD is over complicated in all the wrong ways in terms of how it’s engineered. But you do get the German brand at least. Eureka has retention issues on top of the proprietary burr size, but it’s made in Italy so that could be a plus for people that are really biased against Chinese manufacturing

What’s your budget? The common “entry level” recommendation is a Bambino or Bambino Plus, paired with an Baratza Encore ESP grinder or DF54 grinder. Infuser or Duo Temp Pro are also good alternatives to the Bambinos if you want something a bit more classic, more sturdy, but less modern tech. The next mid tier to end game ish recommendation would be a Breville Dual Boiler, paired with any number of higher end grinders. There are way more expensive espresso machines out there but you’re pretty much hitting diminishing returns after the Breville Dual Boiler. The coffee grinder is really going to be more important than the espresso machine. For a mid tier easy to use grinder, Niche Zero is a great option. It’s easy to use and easy to dial in different beans, with minimal prep and cleanup due to the no faff low retention design. But a lot of the espresso ~~snobs~~ connoisseurs are going to want something with a more targeted grind that requires more work to dial in and needs to be dialed in differently for different beans but is targeted and can extract the unique flavors of different beans and roasts more clearly rather than just having a good but blended tasting espresso. For those type of grinders, 64mm (or larger) flat burrs are a popular option, with the DF64 being a nice cheaper entry level Chinese grinder, Timemore Sculptor (either 64mm or 78mm) being a good mid tier option, and something like the Mazzer Philos or Zerno Z1 being more expensive options. And then people start messing with swapping out different burrs for different flavor profiles and different beans and it starts becoming an addiction and you fall down the rabbit hole and find yourself spending every waking hour thinking about coffee.

You can get a grinder with multipurpose burrs. It’ll do a decent job at both. A hand grinder equivalent would be a K Ultra or C40 in terms of cup profile DF64v would be a better option I feel You could also get a Timemore 064s for a vertical burr platform These grinders won’t excel at both, but you’ll still get pretty good cups

DF64v is gen 3 iirc And yeah, wasn’t recommending hand grinders, just meant that it would be an equivalent to getting those kinds of hand grinders vs something purely pour over focused like a ZP6 (or SSP brew burrs)

Started out with a Df64 and ran into pretty serious clogging, static, overheating (during seasoning), and unfixable alignment issues. Worked on resolving these issues and wound up sending the grinder back before the return window closed. (FWIW I am an engineer and scientist, and have done things like rebuild car engines completely. I like working on machinery and appreciate quality and mechanical precision.) I then ordered a DF83 v3 and went through the same process (also sent back). The DF family of grinders sits at an attractive price point and given their metal construction, apparent heft, popularity, and regular puffing by influencers, sell well. IMO, these grinders are to be avoided and are way more trouble than the their offsetting low prices merit. By now I’ve tried and owned probably 15 different grinders (including a Mahlkonig EK43), and have concluded that spending more from the get-go for the right grinder is the smartest move financially and experience wise. Grinders I’ve used and wound up keeping, liking or giving to family members include: Mazzer Philos (best overall combination of performance, cost, and quality), Kafatek SDRM, Starseeker E55, and MHW-3Bomber F74 Navigator. The last two grinders, IMO, offer exceptional value at their respective price points. These are merely my own experiences and opinions. Others will certainly have had different experiences, and offer different opinions.

Started out with a Df64 and ran into pretty serious clogging, static, overheating (during seasoning), and unfixable alignment issues. Worked on resolving these issues and wound up sending the grinder back before the return window closed. (FWIW I am an engineer and scientist, and have done things like rebuild car engines completely. I like working on machinery and appreciate quality and mechanical precision.) I then ordered a DF83 v3 and went through the same process (also sent back). The DF family of grinders sits at an attractive price point and given their metal construction, apparent heft, popularity, and regular puffing by influencers, sell well. IMO, these grinders are to be avoided and are way more trouble than the their offsetting low prices merit. By now I’ve tried and owned probably 15 different grinders (including a Mahlkonig EK43), and have concluded that spending more from the get-go for the right grinder is the smartest move financially and experience wise. Grinders I’ve used and wound up keeping, liking or giving to family members include: Mazzer Philos (best overall combination of performance, cost, and quality), Kafatek SDRM, Starseeker E55, and MHW-3Bomber F74 Navigator. The last two grinders, IMO, offer exceptional value at their respective price points. These are merely my own experiences and opinions. Others will certainly have had different experiences, and offer different opinions.

Starseeker E55 Pro. No problem grinding for espresso and up. Stepless, low rpm, 55mm conical burrs, built in ionizer, metal construction, almost no retention. IMO unquestionably the best value and best grinder in your price range. FYI, I’ve owned DF64 and DF83 grinders and IMO they are definitely not good grinders. Three of my kids have E55 grinders and I have one too. Everybody loves them.

I had the same wish, went for a Pietro with Pro Brew Burrs and wanted something that did not cause that much pain in the workflow. I got a DF64V Gen2 and SSP Burrs. This setup is a bit messy, workflow is okayish (annoying dancing last bean in the DF64V). But for the price i am happy. Sometimes I wish my Niche workflow would be back.

The DF64v2.5 is the most consistent and easiest to dial in. DF54 works too, Timemore grinders are okay but less precise. Pair with a bottomless portafilter and simple tamp station.